Cultivating A Meaningful Ministry with Rev. Dr. Bankole Akinbinu

Show Notes:

Rev. Dr. Bankole Akinbinu, senior pastor of Baptist Grove Church in Raleigh, North Carolina, has a wealth of experience in nurturing a vibrant community of faith. In this episode, he shares his journey, the challenges he faced, and the vital principles that have shaped his ministry. 

Rev. Akinbinu emphasizes that a vibrant ministry is rooted in community. He notes that the African American church tradition values relational aspects, where connections among members foster growth. He believes that building strong relationships within the church helps create a supportive environment where individuals can share their stories and grow in faith together. He believes that people grow better in circles rather than rows, highlighting the need for small groups and community involvement.

Akinbinu outlines three key pillars that guide his ministry:

1. **Living in Faith**: This pillar emphasizes the importance of anchoring church activities in the Word of God, ensuring members know and obey biblical truths.

2. **Living in Fellowship**: Akinbinu stresses the significance of loving all people as image bearers and creating a strong community among church members. This approach fosters a sense of belonging and encourages individuals to support one another.

3. **Living to Serve**: Discovering and using one's gifts for God's mission is crucial. Akinbinu encourages church members to participate actively in the mission of God, utilizing their talents to serve the community.

Transcript

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We're here today with the Reverend Doctor Bankoli Akimbinu. He's the senior pastor of Baptist Grove Church in Raleigh, North Carolina. And we're so grateful to have you here with us today, Bankoli. It is my honor to be here, Chris and Eddie. It's a pleasure to meet you today. Uh I'm honored. Thank you for having me. Now, Bancoli, you and Chris have history together, right? Y'all went through your your D Men program together at Duke. That's exactly right. Went through the D Men program together and do you know, pray for one another through the storm I'll say, and both of us came out on the other side victorious. No, no, not at all, not at all, no. No, it was a good time. I really enjoyed it and and it was cool because um we're kind of at similar life stages in terms of family and and uh it's been it's been great to watch uh Ben Coley's tenure at Baptist Grove continue to mature and to grow and uh I look forward to hearing I mean we haven't talked in a while, so it it'll be fun to kinda catch up as well as as hear a little bit more about your story. I wonder if you could go back and and maybe tell us a little bit about um about your faith formation. Where we're what's your background and your family of origin? So uh I one, I am the son of Glenda Akinbene and Ben Coley Akinbenu senior. my father is an immigrant from Nigeria and he came here to uh go to college and my parents met at Howard University. And so I ended up growing up in the DC area, PG County, just outside of DC, where Howard University actually is. And so um my mother, devout Christian, loved the Lord, spirit-filled woman of God, and my father at the time, not as much. And so my fourth day formation began first and foremost just with my mom taking me to church. That's where it started. My mom took us to church. We were in evening services, morning services. And my mother was a musician and a singer, and so she would play for the churches that we were in. She would also sing in direct choirs and things. So I'm a little boy, you know, sitting in the pews and sitting in the chairs, just really watching her um lee in worship. And she would sing and and and she would praise the Lord. And honestly, at the time for me as a little boy was a little embarrassing, you know, because my mother's, you know, it's praising the Lord and everything, and I'm looking like, oh my, you know, at the time. But as My parents eventually divorced and so during that period I was still very young. During that period that's when my relationship with the Lord I would say became more personal, right? I remember I was saved at ten and it was actually by my bedside. difficult period, you know, for me with the disintegration, what I felt like disintegration of my family. And I was praying and just talking to the Lord. And I said, Lord, you know, if you're real, come into my life. You know, I need you and I want to receive you as Lord and Savior. This is by my bedside. Um and that is my salvation moment for me. That's when I believed I I was saved at by my bedside. I had been in church for a while, but that's when it became personal. And I was young. Then after that, um, so fast forwarding a little bit, my mother called me into the living room one day. I was like playing video games or something. She was like, You're gonna sing with us. So this was my sister who is three years older than me, my mother and me. And my mother was a musician. So I started singing and she taught me how to harmonize and everything. And so we formed a little family group and we would go around singing at different churches. So my first exposure to ministry and serving in church actually was in music ministry, right? I do. I actually have a song on on iTunes called The Heart. Yeah, I do. Yeah. So I still sing. Um, so I I started singing with the family. We would go around to different events and different places and worship services, and we would sing. And then after that, um, around the age of 15. the Lord began to call me into ministry. I was going to a small church at the time, Community Bible Baptist Church. It was the first church where I actually saw youth in leadership roles, significant leadership roles in church. I'll never forget I went. It was a guy who's like a brother to me now. He's my pastor's son. His name was O'Brien Rimbish. And uh he was actually in ministry already, and he was in high school at the time. And so that was when I first came to the church. He was serving, he was, you know, exhorting. And I had never seen um a person so young in such a significant leadership role in church, right? Um, and I didn't know at the time that the Lord would call me into ministry. People saw me and they say, there's a calling on your life, you know. But I said, Uh, I I don't think that's the way I want to go, right? But when I was fifteen, The Lord began to call me into ministry, and it was not some audible voice necessarily. It was a deep resonance in my spirit. And it was a short little refrain, constant, persistent. Preach the gospel. Preach the gospel. And I'm in high school at the time. I normally could concentrate very well when I was in class. I was not distracted with other things. I was hearing as I'm sitting in class, listening to the lectures, preach the gospel, preach the gospel. So I said, Lord, I believe you're calling me. And uh I I said, but I really want to know. And so during lunchtime I would go up to the library. I fasted and I would go up to the library and I would pray and I would read my word. It was so interesting around that time I didn't say anything to anyone, not even my mother at the time. People began to call me to preach and speak at different places. vacation Bible schools, worship services, and I was like, Oh, really? And so at that time, even if you weren't a preacher, my mother said, You need to avail yourself and be available to do the Lord's work, right? So I said, okay. So I would go and I would speak. And then I said, God, I feel like you're I feel like you're calling me into ministry. If if this is you, Lord, like almost like the Gideon piece, right? If this is you, Lord, give me one more engagement. I was sitting on my mom's bed and I was watching a Redskin game, because I'm a big Red at the time Redskins now commanders. Big Redskin fan. So I was watching the Redskin gang. And about five minutes later, after I said it, the phone rang again. And it was my pastor. And my pastor said, Bank Holey, will you preach on the fourth Sunday, which was our youth Sunday? So I said, Okay, I will. So I preached that Sunday and I came to him at the end of that service and I said, I need to sit down with you and have a conversation. Came in later on that week and I said, You know, the Lord is calling me into ministry. And he said, We already knew, we were just waiting for you. Waiting waiting for you to say yes. So people saw the call of God on my life even before I formally accepted it. Um it was not the path that I wanted. Uh my mother's a nurse, my dad's an accountant, my sister's a doctor. So I thought I would go down the medical path. that was my preference. Um, but the Lord called me into ministry and even when it was time to go to college I said, God, know, I need a backup plan. At the time, I'm I'm in a small church, so I didn't I didn't know anything about full time ministry or anything like that. So I was gonna go and into the Pharm D programs that were just coming out around the time I was going to high school. So you could become a doctor of pharmacy in six years. I applied, got accepted to every school that I applied to. That was going to be my path. And I went and I talked to my pastor, Reverend Dr. Clovesta Wimbish, and he said, Wha what are your plans? He asked me just like that. I said, I told him all my plans and what I was gonna do. Seminary, I'll do it, but later, you know. And and he said, Okay, he said, You can do all of that, but you know you'll end up in full time ministry. And he didn't say it in, you know, a harsh tone in any way. But when he said it, it was almost like somebody just took a knife and cut my heart. Like I felt such deep conviction, like I felt it viscerally, because I knew that the Lord wanted me to go to school for ministry. And so, um I left and I went home to my mother and I said, you know, I I know I've applied to all these schools, I know I have these plans, but I know I'm supposed to go to school for ministry. And so this was in almost like in July, right? Who's still accepting students in July? Got something in the mail from Liberty that they had a Bible program. So I said, Okay, well let me look into it. I looked into it. That's how I ended up going to Liberty for a year. I transferred, but I went to Liberty for a year. because they had a Bible program. So all of my training is in Bible and ministry and uh that's that's kind of a condensed version of myself. What what I what I love is that y the call y came from outside. And so, you know, I for me it was an interior call later affirmed by folks outside. But for you it's the opposite. And I think sometimes uh people for or people being called to ministry don't understand that there's there's both sides of it. It's not just Eddie decides to go preach or Ben Coley decides to go preach. And it's not just somebody telling you you should go preach. There has to be both of it. And you talked about your your mom and your pastor. I wonder who are some of the other voices in your life that really kind of spoke into you and really helped open your eyes to this this is what God really is calling me to do in life. Yeah, so you know, it's so interesting. I would say my formation started early. There's a there's a man who was like a grandfather to me. He was a pastor. He's now in the cloud of witnesses. Um but his name was Reverend Dr. Donald Cole. and he actually was the first person to give me Bib my first serious Bible study materials. And I think at the time I probably was thirteen. And he gave me a Strong's concordance, taught me how to use it. He gave me a Thompson chain Bible. right, a Matthew Henry commentary with the Bible, right? Some basic tools and showed me how to use it. He he took me through it and gave me access. And these were coming out of his own library. Right? So it started then 13. Um of course and I didn't mention this, but my pastor started sitting down with me as well. I think at the time might have been 14 and a half, 15, early 15, and he said, um, I want to walk through the doctrines of scripture with you. Right? So Then John Pastor John Robinson was another pastor in the area uh that really had an affinity for and a heart for young preachers. Um he definitely was another person that gave opportunities, uh spoke into my life and things of that nature. Um but I would say there were different people along the way. I can go back to when even when I was very young, uh a woman by the name of Mother Lewis in the Kojik Church, right? Uh she would speak to me. You know how people are, baby, God has a calling on your life, you know. So so there were many people along the way and and one there's another woman named Reverend Sinaida McFall is such uh a beautiful relationship that we have. She texts me every Sunday, even now, after listening to our eight o'clock service, she'll go to her church, but she'll text me every Sunday a word of encouragement or prayer or response to the message. She's known me Actually, even before it this is the way God works, I started going to her a music school that was in her house. It was called Shirley Abel School of Music, but they held it in her house when I was younger. Then we started going to the same church, the church that I preached my initial sermon in. She was a minister there many years later. And so she's she heard me preach my first sermon and everything and she still texts me today. So there there there's so many people. Yeah, that's amazing. I wonder I wonder if you would jump all the way forward to what your y your contacts for ministry now and maybe give us a sense of w where you are, where you're serving, and um kind of what ministry looks like for you today. Okay. So I serve uh at Baptist Grove Church. I'm the senior pastor at Baptist Grove Church in Northwest Raleigh. We're in Raleigh, North Carolina. Uh this congregation, actually last year we celebrated 150 years. So this year is our 151st year. So this congregation started in 1875, uh, under a bush arbor. That's how I got the name Grove, right? It was four men that started a church under a bush arbor, no buildings or anything. Um, and now obviously it has grown there, two buildings and things of that. that nature. this congregation is it initially it was a rural church um in a rural setting, but now it's more suburban. They built up a lot around the area, right? I came here in two thousand and twelve. I came here on the heels of a toxic period in the congregation where there was a separation with my predecessor and some people left and things like that. So it was a congregation By their own uh, you know, confession and and admission, they would say we were in the wilderness, right, at the time that I came. So we're in the wilderness, but we're looking, we have hope, we have a desire, we know that God has greater for us, and there's some healing that needs to be done, but we believe that God is going to heal us and God is going to take us further than what He's ever taking taken us. And so when I came, they there was this was a congregation that yes there was there was some pain, but But they were they were also holding on to promise as well, I would say. And so when I came here, I wanted to come and learn the context. I learned the context and then gave a vision. Um for our future, right? Took me about a year at towards the latter part of my first year, I gave a vision for our future. And so that we have three pillars living in faith, living in fellowship, living to serve. Our vision was much longer at the time, uh, but then you know you have this long vision and it it sounds good and looks pretty on paper. But then you ask people, what's the vision? Uh so our vision, like we had a long it it was more like a mission take, but it was our vision is to reach growing in power, committed followers of Jesus Christ. Who live life to the fullest by growing in relationship with God, strengthening relationships with others, and bringing life to the world through service, right? I can remember it. Yeah, it was in my heart, right? So now it is our vision is to live faithfully and fully in Christ. Right?

And we have three pillars: 15:25

living in faith, living in fellowship, and living to serve, right? notice the repetition of living there. I'm I'm really big on existential discipleship. being a disciple, um, how we connect our faith with every area and every part of our lives, right? Um and as we are being and living into who we are as Christians, then we are able to make disciples simply in our being, right? And doing each and every day. So that's why the living Is emphasized in our pillars, living in faith, living in fellowship, living to serve, right? The faith aspect, obviously, we anchor what we do in the word of God. the church is anchored upon the word. And so the whole living in faith piece piece is knowing and obeying the truth as communicated in the inspired word of God. The fellowship piece, the community nature. Um, we're African American church, African American church in general, like the relational aspect, the family aspect, it's almost just organic. It's like there, right? But we really put an emphasis on it as well, right? I believe people grow better in circles than they do in roles, rows. And so it's important that people engage with one another, that you know each other. Right? Um, that you know you share your story and somebody knows your story and you know their story, right? So the fellowship piece is loving all people as image bearers and fostering strong community amongst brothers and sisters in Christ, right? We want to love all people as image bearers, whether they're members of this church or not, whether they're Christians or not, we love them as image bearers. But then we foster strong community amongst the church, right? And then living to serve, discovering and using your gifts to advance God's mission in the world. Right? the missio day, right? Uh, all of that. We want to be those who participate in the mission of God using our gifts. So those are our pillars. That's our structure here. We are intergenerational church, truly intergenerational. I can say that. Like that's a honest statement. it's not just something that's an ideal. We have people who will join this church. And they'll join and they are, you know, Gen Alpha, Gen Z and at the s on the same Sunday we'll also have a person who is you know, Gen X or uh silent generation even join the church. So let's be be careful when you call Gen X old. Let's be real careful with that because uh some of us on this uh on this call might be Gen X. Just I it's a possibility. So I I'm sure. Look, no offense at all, but Gen X is a lot older than Gen Alpha. Not old. every day, yeah. So I y I you one of the things that I I heard y you say, and there is a whole lot of great stuff that you offered, was that when you got there, really it was kind of a wilderness season in the life of the church. And y you got to a place a year later where you were able to announce a vision, maybe point some people in direction. What y what I'm finding in talking to pastors, what I'm finding talking often to people who are leading nonprofits, uh missions is is that a lot of them right now feel like they're in this wilderness era, this wilderness season. And so what what are some of the things that you did that that you could say these were some of the things that we did that really helped us kind of begin to move, even without a a well-stated vision, begin to move forward. What are the s some of the things that you look back now and you're like, I don't know how we survived that or I shouldn't have done that. But w but somehow we survived that. What what are some of those first year movements that allowed you to really to begin to make make motion happen? So that's a really good question. Um so anytime you come into a congregational context that's in like a wilderness season, I compare it to the children of Israel being in exile. Right? And so I actually was teaching on this last year. You come in almost and you have to be like an exilic prophet. Okay. Uh the exilic prophet will identify, you have to identify, here's what happened. There's some anytime you have a congregation that divide they were divided or something, there were some pitfalls that you want to see a clear of. So you have to acknowledge that. You can't you cannot, you know, uh try to hide any of that or sweep it under the rug, because you don't want to fall in those same pits again. But one of the things that the exilic prophets did as well is they called people and reminded them of the hope, right? And that is so critical. It is so important that despite where we are right now or where you have been, there is hope for greater, right? And that's one of the primary things. When you come in, if you're a leader, you have to remind people of the hope that we have. And then you have to set their minds on a greater vision. Right. And I'm not necessar necessarily talking about um, you know, the particular vision for ministry in your church that you're gonna develop, but just God's greater vision for them. Right? So one of the first things that I did, I wanted to focus this church on what is the purpose for the church and what is God's desire for the church, what are God's promises to his church, right? So just the church capital C, right? before we even started talking about the particular, right? To remind us that what we experience in a local church setting, some of it may align and some of it might might not align. But here is what God's design is for it. So that was one of the first things that I did. Next thing is looking at your culture, right? What is the culture? So we I took the church through this book called Cracking Your Church's Culture Code. And the reason I did that is because sometimes, at least in our context, and probably in a lot of churches, but in the Baptist church context, sometimes the expectation is that we are in this wilderness period. We're bringing in, um, we voted in the pastor, right? So there's some hopes that we have that this pastor has what it takes to bring us out of the wilderness. But the perspective places all of the onus upon the superstar pastor And it does not take into account our responsibility as parishioners and as a church to have a culture where the vision can actually live and breathe. Right? So I wanted us to assess what is the culture of our church right now? So that book, Cracking Your Church's Culture Code, I think I did it during a Bible study, Cracking Your Church's Culture Code. And it was great because it really started asking probative questions to the congregation. about what is our culture, why is our culture this, and then what are the things that we need to change in our culture? So that when this new vision is given, this new vision actually has a chance to take off. Right? Because culture is like the oxygen. It can kill it, right? and so we started talking through some of those things as well. Right. So that was so looking at the vision uh of God's church, looking at our culture, right? The next thing I would say is you have to make sure that you are with the people, right? You have to make sure you're with the people. I have an itinerary speaking ministry, but that first year you have to make sure that you're here, you're present, and even beyond. Did you I say first year, but for me it was first year. But you gotta make sure that you're here and present. Being with people, uh it's the speed of trust. If people trust you, they'll follow the vision if they don't trust you, but you have to build that trust. Um Just because you are called the pastor doesn't mean you actually have become the pastor, right? There's a different I y say that one more time 'cause I think that's something that a lot of people struggle with. The Just because you have the title and you are called pastor does not mean you have actually become the pastor experientially, where people say, This person has a shepherd's heart. I trust them as my shepherd, and I'm willing to follow them as a shepherd of this congregation. And that takes time. That takes being with people, that takes having conversations. And the other thing it takes is you have to go through some storms, right? You have to go through some storms and people have to see how you handle those moments, right? That builds the trust as well. And so going through storms, storms are difficult. They are obstacles, but they are also opportunities. So we had some bumpy, you know, some bumpy experiences initially within my first three years here. There were some bumpy moments, right? but just like Moses, right, the Bible says the the people Of Israel were baptized, not into God, but they were baptized into Moses through the crossing of the Red Sea. Right? You're gonna have some Red Sea moments that are difficult. People will follow your leadership and trust your leadership more as they see you handle those moments in a godly way. So there were some moments where my character, as far as how I was going to respond to toxicity, was tested. And if I had responded to the toxicity in the outside what I'll say just basically a sinful way, in a fleshly incarnal way, that would not have um encouraged the trust that was needed for them to follow my leadership. So there were times where you have to pray. I had to pray, Lord, give me the ability to respond to this in a Christian way or a godly way, Christ-like way. Um Even though in my flesh I want to respond differently. Right? And that's not easy. So there's some, you know, the young people use the term, you know, you took an L or something like that. Well, sometimes you have to, right? you have to, right, in order to demonstrate to people here is what a Christ like response is, here's what Christ like interaction is, and you still, though, are directing them towards God's vision for the church. And so that helped tremendously. Um, I had to there were there were there were a lot of moments and some bumpy moments early on, but people would come to me after I handled a certain thing, and they sometimes they're quiet publicly, but then they'll come and say, I really appreciate how you handle that, right? And it may not seem like much, but it is very significant for your leadership later on. I think it's helpful to if you're someone who is a pastor, maybe going into a new context, just to be reminded that if you don't know the specific and particular vision for this local congregation, there's still work to do where you can you can position the church's theological imagination towards the God's purpose of and for the church. Yes. I think that's a really helpful starting place if you don't know what to do. And then I also think this assessment of culture is is essential. Um every church has its own particular flavor and makeup and history and people and all of those things contribute to yeah uh the image that I have in mind is just you know John chapter one. The the word became flesh and moved into this particular neighborhood in Eugene Peterson's translation. Right. to know the neighborhood. You've got to be around it and and kind of see what's in in that. The phrase that you use though, I thought this was interesting. Um, the the you need to assess that so that the vision can live and breathe in the culture. And you said the phrase culture is like oxygen and it can i what what do what do you mean by that? Like there's a whole way of thinking about culture that's there. I wonder kind of I've never heard anybody say that. So e explain that. breathe. Culture's like the air you breathe, right? Um and it and I'll say this, it culture can stink, but when you've been in a particular place for so long, you become used to the stench. So it no longer stinks to you, right? But the other piece with that is you can have a great, I mean, strong particular vision for ministry. Your vision can be great. But that vision will not live, it will not take off because the culture can actually kill it. So sometimes we believe we got you know, it's the vision or we don't have direction. Or we it's not always that. Sometimes you have that, but the culture is just toxic, the interactions, the trust is not there, so the vision can't take off. Yeah. Somebody once said culture eats vision for breakfast. yes, it does. Absolutely. And that is absolutely true. And so as a new leader, it's it's taking time to really learn and assess the culture. And with that, it requires patience is not necessarily a virtue of mine, but it does require patience. You know, even as we are ministering to others as pastors, God is also forming and shaping us through this work, right? And so um one of the things that we have to do when we are new in a context is is we have to crucify the fleshly desire to perform well quickly. That that you're looking at certain metrics and targets because you know, we live in a metric and target based and you gotta get to this place quickly, you gotta do this, you gotta do because there's a pressure that you feel to prove that whether I was the right selection of the bishop or I was the right selection of the church, I wanna prove it. Right. At the end of the day, you have to crucify that desire because it's going to require some patience and you're going to have to learn context, you're gonna have to learn culture. And understand that even when it doesn't seem like you have forward mom momentum, you are gaining momentum because you're doing the right thing in in the right season. And and even, you know, if you're as you assess sometimes the culture can be healthy, it can be toxic, it can be somewhere in between. Regardless, culture is one of those it's it's like a houseplant. either you have to kind of bring it back to life or sometimes you just have to keep watering it and nurturing it. Some of my hardest moments in ministry have been where I I've realized whether it was staff culture or church culture, I've just kind of taken my hands off the wheel or forgotten to to tend to it. It but it's part of that and you know, when you talk about, you know, not responding toxically sometimes, what you what you're really doing in those moments is instead of empowering a particular way of being, you're starting to short circuit that way of of being. You're beginning to prune the plant in a certain direction. And so I you know, I I I think yeah I'm just sitting here thinking, yeah, I I've just been here for a year and I think I'm s I'm just now beginning to figure out cultural pieces. So yeah. And even down to ge ge geographical aspects, right? So I'm from j like is mentioned, just outside of the D C area. I left the D C area and went to North, New Jersey. I was serving a church in New Jersey and then went from New Jersey to North Carolina. Right. Completely different context, right? And so even that can impact ministry, right? It can impact How people engage and interact, right? When I went to New Jersey, if you go into a place of business, they didn't speak really, you know. And uh I'll never forget we went to a DSW in New Jersey. This is when I realized I was in a different place from Maryland. And they really didn't speak at all. And my wife purchased something and it wasn't, you know, thank you for shopping with us. The bag was just handed to us. And my wife was kind of frustrated by that, so she said, Well, thank you. And he said, You're welcome. And so that was in New Jersey. But then you come here and people, you know, speak and or they'll wave and everything. So different context, right? Um, and so it's learning the context and then ultimately you will also be shaped in some ways by the context as well, right? So I wonder I wonder if you could reflect on kind of you know not just the very beginning of a ministry and kind of the first year or two of assessing where you are and casting vision and assessing culture and establishing yourself not just as the title pastor, but you become the the the pastor of the people. Now you're fourteen years into this in this one congregation. I wonder I remember thinking, you know the first year or two I was in a lead pastor position and I thought, you know, can I do this? And then it's how long can I do this? Is the question that comes quickly after that. And uh and the the wisdom that Eddie gave me that I wasn't great at following was pace yourself. he actually gave it to my wife. He told my wife to he said, remind Chris to pace himself Yeah, that's right. That's right. So I wonder for you, as you're now, you know, kind of past the sprint of beginning and now you're into the marathon portion of ministry. How how are you sustaining the work, you know, over the longer period of time and how how is your mindset of your role changing as you're as you're into your fourteenth, fifteenth year uh in a context Yeah, no, that that's a wonderful question. So what I will say is we have experienced rapid growth, right, as a church. And so I've seen the different iterations of growth in this one congregation, right? And with each stage and each level of growth, it has demanded a change in Even my even my leadership, right? And and what it is that I'm focusing on what I need to do. So I'll say when I first came on, I was involved in the weeds. We didn't have as large of a staff as we have. So I was involved in the weeds of every just about everything, right? Um, and then as we began to grow, I needed to bring on additional staff members, right? And as we brought on additional staff members though, my natural inclination was to still be in the weeds with just about everything. And and I realize that one is not first, it's not good for the congregation, right? It's the Exodus eighteen piece, right? Jethro, Moses, this isn't good for the people, but it's also not good for you either, right? Um, and so I have learned how to better delegate and trust as well that when I do delegate and that people are going to take care of it in a strong way without me necessarily you know, being as hands on and in the weeds in it, right? Um, and and that requires, like I said, it requires trust and I will admit I was just talking about this yesterday or day before, that it does make you uncomfortable initially, right? And it made me uncomfortable. But I I know that the growth of the congregation would have been hindered if I did not adapt, right? So the congregation is still able to grow because I don't feel like I have to have everything in my hands and doing everything. Right. Go ahead. the hard part of that for me has been through the years. It's not just not in my hand, but not doing it the way that Eddie Rester would have done it. The Eddie Rester way. Trusting people that, well, they're they're gonna do it the way that it needs to be done, that Christ has called them to do. And it's not the Eddie Rester way. And that's okay. Uh and that that sometimes is hard. So what you know, I use a GPS just about to get everywhere, Waze, right? And what's so fascinating with Waze is that you can take different roads to get to the same place. And it's trusting that people may take different roads, but you will land at the same place and do not expect them to use your same route to accomplish whatever needs to be accomplished. And that you're absolutely right about that. Yes, that's that is something that requires growth and maturity as a leader, right? So that's that's one thing I would say. The other thing, um, you know, COVID man was it was rough on us. COVID was COVID was a beast, right? Excuse me. Um and my leaders came to me during COVID and said, uh, Pastor, we feel like you need to start taking a longer vacation. Ha ha ha. I didn't know whether I should be offended or not. Like what are you saying? Right. We exactly. But um I saw that God had given them insight and wisdom into a gap area for me. Right. Pastor, we know you love the church. You love but you also need to practice Sabbath more and rest more. Right. And so I started doing that. And I d you know. You don't realize how much you need it until you're actually doing it. Of course, in scripture we know God says we do, but you don't realize how much you needed until you're actually doing it. And so from a sustainability standpoint, after COVID and during COVID and after COVID, I actually take a month vacation. Um, and it's usually it was in September, now it's August, but I I take off, right? And that has actually been really good for me. But not just for me, it's been good for the congregation as well, right? I have a mentor of mine, actually Bishop Walter Scott Thomas, he says, every pastor is an interim pastor. Every pastor. Whether for us in our Baptist tradition, whether it's gonna be God calls you home, you leave, or the church votes you out. But you're not gonna be there forever. And so a mark of good leadership is the ability for the church to thrive and to function in your absence effectively. Right? And so that piece right there, when I'm out and the church is thriving and still growing and doing well, that's a great thing and it's great for them, right? So that's something else connected to sustainability in ministry. Um I we we have to say we have to learn how to get away, we have to learn how to take breaks. And we have to we can't wait till everything is done, because everything will never be done. Yeah. So you can't wait to say, when I get to this and this No, you just have to take the break. And trust, and I learned during COVID as well. God, you know, he says, Upon this rock I build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail. I'll tell you, uh I don't know, you know, other pastors and their experiences and talking to some I know that this resonates. But when I first heard that we were shutting down, And you know, we were gonna go to virtual. I have to be honest, uh I even though I sounded courageous and bold and d I I looked back at the video and I stood up and I We're gonna continue to do ministry well and honestly, like I was quaking inside, fearful. I was like, God, I don't know how this is gonna work. And the Lord just continued to sustain, not only sustain, but also the church didn't just survive, but it thrived during COVID. And God really showed me in that this is my church. Right. Uh it was here long before you got here. It's gonna be here even after you depart. I'm going to take care of my church. And so you can trust God and as a pastor that that God's gonna take care of the church and that really does help to free you as well. So that's connected to sustainability, right? Other than that. I love that. Delegation, rest, and then just remembering that the church ultimately is is God's church. It's not your church. You're an interim pastor. Every pastor is an interim pastor. I think that's I think that's super valuable. Eddie, you have any final questions for Ben Cole? I I I think you know, one of the things that I I'd be interested in is what how how do you you're getting away, you're delegating, taking Sabbath, but but what other pieces of formation do you are important to you are part of part of your work? A deep, constant prayer life. And I'm that piece right there is so important for prayer first. Um everything that we do, the Bible says, you know, apart from me you can do nothing, right? And dealing with John fifteen, abiding. A prayer life is so important for a leader, right? To actually go before the Lord, to hear from God, not just for your sermons and your messages. But for God's will for the congregation in the church. Well, God, what do you want? Right? Because I truly believe God gives grace for what He desires, right? And what He places in our hands. So, God, is this your assignment? What is it that you want us to do? So I have a deep prayer life, right? Uh, and and reading the word, you know, a devotional life. That's not just reading for a sermon or reading for a message, but reading The word is a living word for me, right? What does God desire? The other piece I would say is um community, practicing community, right? Being you don't want people just to engage in community. You want to be engaged as well. You need friends, you need to talk to people, you need to have relationships, mentorships, that kinda. So being in community is very important as well, right? One of the things that I say that I do now that I I hope pastors will do even more. And I'll tell you the story of how I started doing it. I was sitting in worship and it sounded like noise to me. It's like a it's just like it's just cacophony and it's like, what in the world is going on here? And the Lord said, I need you to get away with me. I was about to go preach and I was just hearing noise. I need you to get away with me. Okay. So God wanted me to go to a retreat center, right? I I that wasn't a practice of mine. So I was like, you know, who's going to a retreat center? So I actually called the week I was supposed to go. I was like, you have any rooms? They were like, no, we don't have any available. I was like, wow, I guess people do go to retreat centers. And uh when I called though, I said, I here I'm gonna leave my name and my number with you and if anybody cancels, just call me. That evening they called me back and said, someone canceled. So I went to the retreat center in the middle of the woods. Mm. peaceful place just to be with God. And the and I thought I was going there for one one reason, right? I I just turned 40, so I was like, you know, I'm gonna go and God, you've done a lot in 40 years. So download for me what it is that you want me to do for you in this next couple of years. And so I w but when I went, it was like the Lord had a different agenda to do a work in my own heart and a work in my own soul. And so from that moment, right Retreating and getting away to be with God in a still and silent place.

Where you can practice Psalm 46: 43:33

10. Be still and know that I'm God. Right? That is a practice that I would encourage every pastor and every leader. We are surrounded by noise, right? In life in general, but definitely pastors, we're in meetings, we're in worship services, we're doing, we go home. So you need a a place of stillness where you can actually come before the Lord and and just allow the Lord to work and show you your own soul in the solitude and all of that. So practicing solitude and retreating is another one for sure. Um, so scripture intake, prayer, retreat, community. Um, and as I as you you know, I teach spiritual formation. So there are others like journaling and things like that. But um It's very important that we tend to our own soul. When I was away in that place, God spoke to me and said, Never make ministry an end. I am always the goal. And ministry is not the end, it is a tool by which you are being shaped. Because what is most important is not simply what you accomplish in ministry and everything else. What is most important is who you are becoming in me. And so We're constantly becoming, so we're being shaped. I think that's a great just a great word and a good word probably to end on. Incredibly grateful to you, Ben Coley, for her who you are, for what you do, for your ministry, but also for this conversation and the ways in which you've inspired us uh today with uh just kind of opening up how you think about these things. Incredibly grateful for you, man. Really, really grateful. grateful to meet you. for me to to share. Um, thank you so much. This has been an honor. Nice to meet you, Eddie. I've heard so much about you. And Chris, good to see you again, my brother. I hope family's well. Likewise. Likewise.