"Growth & Reconciliation" with Dr. Kevin Murriel

Show Notes:

In this episode, Reverend Dr. Kevin Muriel shares his journey from Mississippi to Atlanta, his insights on racial reconciliation, leadership in the church, and the future of the United Methodist Church. A rich conversation on history, culture, and innovative leadership in faith communities.


Resources:

Cascade United Methodist Church - https://cascadeumc.org/
Candler School of Theology - https://candler.emory.edu/
Duke Divinity School - https://divinity.duke.edu/
Global Ministries of the United Methodist Church - https://www.umcmission.org/
James Lawson and the Nashville Civil Rights Movement - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Lawson
Twitter - https://twitter.com/KevinMuriel
Cascade UMC - https://cascadeumc.org/

Transcript

Chris McAlilly (00:02.147)
I'm here today. My name is Chris McAleely. Welcome to the Wait, and I'm here today with my good friend, the Reverend Dr. Kevin Muriel, senior pastor of Cascade United Methodist Church in southwest and midtown Atlanta. But I've been knowing Kevin since he was here in Mississippi and also on a journey through seminary to Candler School of Theology over at Emory University.

And so Kevin, welcome to the podcast.

Kevin Murriel (00:35.49)
Hey man, good to be with you, Chris. Honored, honored man, just to hang out with my buddy and my friend and, you know, just one of our most outstanding leaders in Methodism and across the country, man. Good to see you. Thanks for having me.

Chris McAlilly (00:48.055)
It's great to see you as well. I kicked Eddie out of the conversation because I just wanted to talk to you today. Eddie's not with us. So I've been looking forward to this, catching up, but also just kind of hearing a little bit more about how you approach your ministry. I'd love to maybe just start with, tell us just a little bit about where your background, kind of your family of origin, where you came from.

Kevin Murriel (00:53.688)
That's cool.

Chris McAlilly (01:16.301)
and kind of your sense of call to ministry.

Kevin Murriel (01:19.758)
Well, man, you know, I'm a country boy from Brandon, Mississippi, man. I'm born and raised, like we say in the country and reared in Mississippi. You know, it's interesting. I'm in Atlanta, but, you know, my roots are in the deep south and I grew up in church, lifelong United Methodist, and just felt a sense of call early on. You know, nothing, you know, supernatural about it. was just, I felt like

You know, I was raised in church, the church at Port Soll mentioned to me, and I knew that at some point the church would need leadership. so I was, I owe so much to my parents, man, but there were people along my journey. As I look back on it now, they were just so key. And, you know, just the formation. There was this man named Mr. Hayward Sutton, and he used to, he was a Sunday school superintendent on our small church in Brandon.

And every Sunday, he would allow me to come with him around to the Sunday school classes and collect the offering. And I would have to stand up and give the Sunday school report at the end of Sunday school. That's when we used to have the little wooden board and used to, you know, tell how many people were in attendance and how much you collected in Sunday school. We don't use those anymore. But yeah, man. And I was his assistant Sunday school superintendent. And little did I know it was in those moments where I was learning how to public speak.

you know, speaking public and so, and I just see so many different moments, across the years, that have formed and shaped my calling. as a pastor, as a leader, I was one who loves the church, but at my core, man, I'm an easy going love sports. you know, my mom and dad, have, I don't know how many, I don't know if they even missed one or two games my entire life, you know, you and I play ball together. And so it, you know, we, soccer was.

Definitely one of my main sports. I played college football at Jackson State University and leaving Jackson State, went to Emory, to seminary and on to Duke and hey man, landed in Atlanta, got married, the rest is history. In a nutshell.

Chris McAlilly (03:28.987)
Yeah, you're in Georgia now and it'll be hard to get you to ever come back to Mississippi. Tell us a little bit about where you're serving, the context of ministry that you're in, and a little bit about the church. We were talking a little bit about it before we began recording. Yeah, tell us a little bit about your church.

Kevin Murriel (03:36.43)
Yeah.

Kevin Murriel (03:54.4)
Yeah, know, Cascade is a historic African African-American church here in Atlanta, one of the largest in our denomination, pastored by Reverend Walter Kimbrough for 26 years, also pastored by the dean of the civil rights movement, the late Dr. Joseph Lowery, who was actually my personal mentor when I got to Atlanta. And so just a rich history of Cascade, some of your, you know, prominent political figures and physicians and educators from Atlanta.

have come through Cascade and are still there. And so the historic Southwest campus is the most well-known. But then in 2022, we were able to launch Cascade Midtown in partnership with the General Board of Global Ministries here at Midtown in Midtown, Atlanta, through a merger with Grace United Methodist Church. We took over Grace and became Cascade Midtown here. So now we're one church, two locations.

and still holding on to that history of justice and equity and fighting the good fight that was started many, many years before I got here. It's been a great ride, man. I'm almost 10 years in. I celebrate the start of my 10th year this year. It's a wonderful community. We just recently built our first international campus in the Central African Republic.

small country south of Congo, and it is war-torn country. so through a partnership with Global Ministries, we built the very first United Methodist Church in the Central African Republic, and it is booming. It's called Bethel Cascade. And so that's been pretty cool to see that church emerge and explode with growth. So the Lord's allowed us to do some pretty good ministry and just continue to be excited about it.

Chris McAlilly (05:52.195)
That's amazing. That's amazing. I want to hear more about your current context and kind of your, you know, some of the things that that light you up and and inspire you for the work that you're doing. But before we get there, I wanted to maybe just backtrack. I've heard you speak a couple of times just about kind of your journey. And I know that some of your your doctoral work and some of your writing has looked back at

some of the racial dynamics that both you experienced in the church in Mississippi, and then also that are kind of a part of the conversation in the United Methodist Church across the country. And I think you're one of our best thinkers in terms of some of those dynamics and some of the challenges that we have both in healing and renewing the church as we move into kind of this next season of the church's life.

And I wonder, I've heard you tell a story, and it may be that might be a place to start. There was a, we have a shared history at a church in Mississippi and in the Tupelo area. And I remember hearing you tell a story publicly with a group of pastors and it was impactful because it shaped your experience. It was a church that we both have a history and relationship with, but our experience is very different. And I wonder if you'd be willing to share it.

Kevin Murriel (06:58.453)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kevin Murriel (07:17.003)
Man, know, Chris, I think at this point we're family, man. You know, I've seen how our journeys have kind of overlapped and had no idea that when I went to First Methodist in Tupelo that that was going to your family's church, your dad had pastored there, know, your uncle's there. And, you know, the Macalilly name is known everywhere in Tupelo. And so had the opportunity in seminary. I remember Andy Ray, who was the pastor at the time, came to Candler looking for an African-American student to come to serve on the staff.

at first Methodist of Tupelo. think it was probably the first time that it happened. And so, you know, went through a process of students who kind of interviewed and somebody shared within my name, you know, he gave me a call. We talked. He invited me to come on the team for the summer. I was elated. I get to go back home, you know, never really spend any, you know, appreciable amount of time in Tupelo. You know, I just keep on going, you know, up towards Memphis or Oxford. But

Yeah, man. So got to Tupelo and Andy and his family were great. But I remember that first Sunday and I write about this, the first Sunday that I was there and got robed up and it was going out in the traditional service to greet folks. I approached this gentleman. I don't even know who he was. I probably know him now. I forget his name. But approach this older white gentleman and

you know, extended my hand because, you know, I'm from Mississippi. My parents taught us always to, you know, greet people, love on people, you know, look people in the eye, shake a hand. And this gentleman would not shake my hand. And so that was kind of my introduction. And so I sat with that the whole service. It's like, man, OK. You know, so then after that, I think there was a it was a fellowship in the.

the fellowship hall after worship. And I felt so deflated and defeated after that first experience. And I went back to the really beautiful house they had put me in for the summer and just kind of sat there and really wrestled with whether or not I needed to leave because it's just, I don't think I ever told Andy about that situation. I called my dad and talked to him about it. And he said,

Chris McAlilly (09:30.181)
Right.

Kevin Murriel (09:40.834)
This is just a par for the course and you don't know how God's gonna work in that community with you being there. And so it's not like you'd never experienced that before, right? So man went back the next day and just made some incredible relationships. think Reagan Muscheli was there and man just, was it Cleet, Chef Cleet? I think Cleet was there, the chef and got to meet him. And man, the staff was just phenomenal.

And throughout the summer, I was able to go meet people in the city. And, you know, lot of members of your family just embraced me. And by the end of the summer, they were inviting me back for another summer. And I went back the next summer. And, you know, since then, I think you all had a series of African-American pastors, think Cepeda Thomas served there and then Enbridge Action ended up serving their senior pastor. And so I would like to think that I had something to do with, you know, kind of the process of

you know, that those doors opening. But, you know, I think I learned so much from that community and how to navigate the space around, you know, how it is that we need to approach race, not just from a social aspect, but really from a from a spiritual aspect and an ecclesial one at that. And so that's what drove my doctoral work at Duke. I looked at, you know, racial reconciliation as a heterogeneous model for American Christian life.

Chris McAlilly (10:57.499)
.

Kevin Murriel (11:08.907)
looking at the trends of how the church is going to be formed and shaped and how communities are gonna change over the next, then it was 2012 that I started the work. But by 2030, I mean, we're already seeing it now, communities in America look different than they did 20 years ago. And so if the church doesn't start to reflect that diversity, then we're gonna really, I think, lose

Chris McAlilly (11:29.401)
Right.

Kevin Murriel (11:36.075)
of momentum of our witness and discipleship. that's just a little bit of the work that I've been able to do. But man, Tupelo was so impactful in helping to form me in this reality of racial reconciliation.

Chris McAlilly (11:50.115)
I really appreciate you sharing and telling the story. I think that it's helpful, I think, for me to hear how you reflect on that. I also have heard you talk about these kind of macro trends that you've written about and are kind of informing the way in which you're positioning your leadership and positioning your church to.

not only be a witness, but also kind of a driver of change within the larger denomination. And I wonder if you would just reflect a little bit from one experience at one location when you're an intern. Now, you're a senior leader in the church and you've been in a lot of the important impactful conversations that are happening among those that are trying to help the church imagine a new reality, a new future.

Kevin Murriel (12:29.813)
Chris McAlilly (12:42.939)
Just how are you thinking about that? you know, I wonder, you know, being one of the pastors of the largest churches in the nomination, you know, seeing the ways in which the nominational structures both are and are not agile, nimble, you know, capable of quickly moving or changing. I just wonder how you're thinking about it kind of more broadly as you continue to kind of live in this reality, both as a local pastor, but also kind of

Kevin Murriel (13:05.185)
Yeah.

Chris McAlilly (13:12.495)
with some hopes and dreams of shaping the broader conversation.

Kevin Murriel (13:16.972)
Yeah, that's a great question. I reflect on it, think from a couple of different angles. First of all, I think it's hard to focus on some of our more important issues when you're in a constant battle over one in particular. And, you know, we fought for 50 years over, you know, human sexuality in the church, and then we just had a huge split. And so, OK, that battle, you know, let's just say for the time being, you know, is

is resolved, if you would. Disaffiliation has happened. Okay. I would argue, and I'm very blunt about this, that was largely a white issue. When you see across the denomination, the overwhelming majority of congregations that disaffiliated were white and Southern and from the South. And that's just data-driven. I presented on this at the leading edge a couple of years back. And so we see that.

so what issues now that disaffiliation has happened, what do we need to center? Like, okay, it's happened. Now what? And so my contention is we've pushed race and dealing with, the inequities regarding race, within our denomination. We have pushed it aside since the inception of our church. since

We merged with the EUBs and, you know, we still haven't had any, in my opinion, you know, substantive conversations or even movement around what is equity in this denomination really look like? mean, let's just be honest. What does it look like? And I think that won't happen until we are willing to be just brutally and blatantly honest and have some, you know, a season of reckoning with our history. And that can look

You know, that can look difficult and ugly for some, you know, but you don't get to healing until you really kind of deal with the reality of what has been. You and I grew up in Mississippi, and so it you know, we know a lot. We've seen a lot. And so for me, it's never been difficult to talk about race because it's helped to form and shape who I am as a human. don't I am a proud black man. Right.

Kevin Murriel (15:41.261)
I love being black. I want my children to be Scarlett and Anderson. I want them to be proud to be black and proud of their history. And at the same time, understand that they are a part of a larger collective of brothers and sisters across the world. Not just white folk, not just Hispanics or Asians, but we are part of a global community. And so...

What does that mean for our Afro-Caribbean brothers and sisters? What does it mean for those who we're ministering to on the continent of Africa who have very different kind of ideological constructs as it relates to church? And we're still doing ministry there. So it's a broader conversation. I think until we...

We say it's not just a conversation about black and white. It is, but it's also much more broader conversation than that. I think we're gonna keep on kicking the can down the road as we say in the country and we're not gonna deal with it. My contention is that we need to call a special general conference to deal with race and let's just talk about it. let's spend a few million on that and talk about the inequities in appointment making and in...

Chris McAlilly (16:51.673)
Right.

Kevin Murriel (17:02.546)
our university systems, right? How resources are distributed. Let's talk about our apportionment system, right? So let's talk about the balance of power in the connection. So in as much as we are talking about restructuring and reframing things, this is a wonderful time, I think, for us to create as rigid of a system as we have. And it is...

It is rigid. It takes a conference after a conference after four years, after another conference, after a leadership gathering, after all this to change anything in our connection. But I do think we have to start somewhere. And, you know, I don't have the answers, Chris, all of them, but I think we've got to start with the reality of where we've been if we're trying to go anywhere in the future.

Chris McAlilly (17:53.037)
Yeah, I appreciate you saying that. So, yeah, my father and grandfather both...

So,

was from Winston County, so outside of Lewisville. And poor Mississippi dirt farm is kind of where he grew up. And the reason they were Methodists is because they moved from South Carolina where they were Presbyterian, and the dirt farm was down the road from the Methodists rather than the Presbyterian church. So that's where they ended up. he didn't have any prospects. So he could have been a mechanic. He could have been an electrician. He could have gone in the army. He was invited to...

Kevin Murriel (18:10.133)
Hehe.

Kevin Murriel (18:20.607)
Okay.

Chris McAlilly (18:32.603)
go to this national conference with, when he was 18, with kids from Mississippi, Louisiana, Arkansas. They went up on a railroad to Chicago and down to Ohio. He said, was the first time he ever breathed air outside of the state of Mississippi. And he came back with a call to ministry. When Tamilsauts found out he could get paid a little bit to go be a student pastor, and so that's how he ended up.

Kevin Murriel (18:52.949)
Wow. Yeah.

Chris McAlilly (19:01.475)
in ministry in the Methodist Church. And so what I've realized in doing kind of, you know, kind of looking back at his story is really it was a path for him into the middle class, you know, you know, you know, working poor, working middle class family to a middle class life. And he was super committed to the institution of the United Methodist Church. And he did a good job. And so he had a good reputation. My father benefited from that.

Kevin Murriel (19:12.041)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kevin Murriel (19:20.97)
Yeah.

Kevin Murriel (19:26.025)
Hmm.

Chris McAlilly (19:30.883)
And so I recognize, my father's been a bishop in the United Methodist Church. so, you know, my position in the church is a place of extraordinary privilege, white privilege. know, I'm a straight white, you know, American man from Mississippi. And so it just is what it is. I can't do anything about that. It just is what I've been given. And so when I went off to Nashville,

Kevin Murriel (19:34.932)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Murriel (19:41.237)
Mm-mm.

Kevin Murriel (19:52.518)
it is what it is.

Chris McAlilly (19:57.596)
left Mississippi, finished college, went to Birmingham Southern. So was in Birmingham. had not, you know, I wasn't really like engaged with the church. When I left Mississippi, I left my family, my home of origin. I wasn't really like engaging campus ministry. I wasn't really engaging church in Birmingham. But when I got to Nashville, I really started to kind of begin thinking about where I came from. like, I was beginning to explore call to ministry. I didn't know it yet. And I met

Kevin Murriel (20:25.611)
Sure. Yeah.

Chris McAlilly (20:27.119)
I met two individuals. One was a guy named Don Shockley. Don had been in Birmingham when Dr. King wrote the letter from the Birmingham jail. And he was an associate pastor at a white church, a white moderate church that wasn't engaged in the civil rights movement in any way. And he ultimately left Birmingham after reading that letter. And he was a chaplain out in California. met

Howard Thurman and they became deep and know intimate wonderful friends and He encouraged me ultimately to go to Candler and the first person introduced me to was dr. Luther Smith who was a student of dr. Thurman's and so I had this long and rich conversation with Don running Meanwhile Vanderbilt University was inviting back

Kevin Murriel (20:58.379)
Mmm.

Kevin Murriel (21:14.12)
yeah.

Chris McAlilly (21:26.255)
Vanderbilt Divinity School that is, was inviting back and giving an honorary doctorate to the Reverend Dr. James Lawson, who was a seminal figure in the Civil Rights Movement. If you don't know Dr. Lawson, it's worth going and reading his story. But essentially, he was kicked out of Vanderbilt for his role in leading a student sit-in movement to kind of change the trajectory of the movement in the Nashville community. And I audited his course at Vanderbilt Divinity School.

Kevin Murriel (21:34.264)
yeah.

yeah.

Chris McAlilly (21:56.156)
Vanderbilt was like, we love you. We're sorry we kicked you out. And, you know, here's an honorary doctorate. Anyway, so he taught a course that was called Jesus Against Christianity. And it was this amazing experience where he was inviting in all these faith leaders from the movement that had been friends of his into the class. And so it was kind of the first time I, you know, kind of was thinking about, you know, what the church...

Kevin Murriel (22:00.681)
Yeah.

Chris McAlilly (22:23.931)
had been in Mississippi, which was a place where African-American men and women were barred from the doors of Galloway in downtown Jackson from communion in a particular moment of time. And then here's this United Methodist pastor who is kind of offering this different picture. And all of that was super helpful to know. And that was history that I did not know. And it was all a part of kind of this journey and kind of

Kevin Murriel (22:49.513)
Right.

Chris McAlilly (22:52.909)
understanding a different picture of what the church had been in Mississippi and having come back to Mississippi after going to Atlanta and coming back, what I realized is just like, it's the United Methodist Church in Mississippi, it's just a very different experience in the black church and in the white church. And there are lot of different reasons for that that I'm still trying to understand, frankly, but part of it is it's driven by economics. It's driven by

Kevin Murriel (23:09.321)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Chris McAlilly (23:22.735)
you know, racial, cultural factors. In terms of what it would actually look like to have, you know, a deep and meaningful conversation about race across the entire denomination, you know, some of those factors are in, you know, certainly in Mississippi and across the southeastern jurisdiction. You know, I certainly, you kind of laid out a list of some things that would need to be talked about if we were going to have this hypothetical, you know,

conference where we would spend millions of dollars to come together and have, you know, an intentional conversation about some of those factors. Some of it would be historical, you know, understanding kind of how we got to where we are. I think that's super important. Some of it would be financial, you know, and just kind of looking at how the finances flow across the nation. And you mentioned some other factors. I just wonder if you were going to set the agenda for that, that general conference and you were the

Kevin Murriel (23:51.769)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Kevin Murriel (24:01.087)
Yep.

Kevin Murriel (24:13.322)
Mm-hmm.

Chris McAlilly (24:19.619)
you're the general secretary of it, what would be some of the things you would put on the agenda?

Kevin Murriel (24:21.662)
Yeah.

Kevin Murriel (24:26.526)
wow. You know, that's really a good question, Chris. I think you've outlined it. I think there has to be a, there really has to be a telling of the history and an understanding of the history. I just don't, I think it's really hard to contextualize where you go if you don't have, you know, kind of where you've been. And even the story you just shared. Now, I never would have known that.

if storytelling is powerful, it is so powerful. And I think when we start to understand people's stories and really take time to listen and be present, you'd be surprised. Some of the things that you learn and really how you find out that we're not that much different, we're not that different in many ways.

I think that'd be the first part. I then think there needs to be something around language. And I remember when I served a church here during seminary, it was in Fairbent, Georgia. And I was a student pastor there. And I was the first African-American pastor to go to church in a transition community. So there were still quite a few white members there. it was amazing to me at Wednesday supper how

there was always this sense of, okay, let us show our black pastor that we really do like black people. Like, you know, we're not racist, you know? And I think that's kind of the first thing that people go to when you start talking about race. It's like, okay, if you mentioned white privilege or if you mentioned some, it's like, okay, they must think that I'm, and no, that's not even the, so I think this language, and then sometimes people don't even know.

You know, I've had people say, how do you, do you like, do you want to be called African American? You want to be called black? mean, and then I say to you, you want to be called white, you want to be called European? Like, what do you want? You know, what do you want to be called? And so there's such a, you know, and with all good intention, right, with all good intention. But I do think there has to be some language sharing around, you know, what to say, what's OK to say.

Chris McAlilly (26:32.973)
Ha ha.

Kevin Murriel (26:50.666)
You know, Al Vivian who is C.T. Vivian's son when I was going through Leadership Atlanta, he did race day for us here with Leadership Atlanta. And he used a unique phrase. He said he's his friend's cultural informant. So like if there's something that, you know, they need to understand about our culture, he was like, all right, you got, you have free, you have liberty to and ask me.

so that you don't get out here and start saying something that's gonna really get you kind of, know, get you looked at sideways. So I would rather you come and ask me about it. And I think we've got to provide space for that. I mean, I would rather someone come and ask me, hey, look, Kevin, I just don't know. Can you tell me, can you help me? Now, I'm not speaking for all black folk. I'm just saying, you know.

I just think those conversations are important. It'd take a whole day just talk about language and then culture. We really have to have an immersion into understanding culture that as an African American man, my experience in America and even in the world is different than someone who is Afro-Caribbean. Very different experiences.

And so just because we share this game, same skin tone doesn't mean we share the same cultural experience. And I think that is another, again, that's education. Chris, I could go on and on about, and then we hadn't even gotten to the issues yet, right? You we hadn't even gotten to the, yeah, I mean, you have to set the table. So I think, you know, we would spend a few days just setting the table. And

Chris McAlilly (28:32.475)
Yeah, just sat on the table. Yeah, it makes sense.

Kevin Murriel (28:43.826)
And then in an attempt to move forward, would really look to address some of the major challenges that we see across our connection. Again, like I said, appointment making. I think symbolism is important. There have been people who have wrestled with the idea of a logo of a flame burning on a cross. I think the symbolism with that.

we need to talk about ain't saying change it. I just think, you know, I'm from Mississippi. My church was bombed, you know, well before I was alive, but my grandfather, you know, our church, my grandfather was a, was a trustee when, Taylor'sville UMC, which is my home church was bombed back in the sixties. it was on one side of the road and then, you know, the Klan was bombing churches all across, you know, in, Brandon and Jackson. And, now where it sits.

Chris McAlilly (29:16.217)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Murriel (29:43.898)
They built it on the other side of the road. And so my granddad's name is still in the cornerstone. So I think some of those conversations around symbols, I I think are legitimately important. So, you know, I would need to sit with what a substantive agenda would look like, but I would certainly get your input, my friend.

Chris McAlilly (30:07.931)
Well, you I think you've laid out a starting point. I do think that it's important to, I think, engage memory and some honesty around that. And I do think that there would be a list of issues that perhaps could be talked about. One of the things that I appreciate about you as a leader, and this has always been a part of you, and also I think this would be a part of the conversation, it would be...

You know, I'm curious about ways of approaching a historic institutional structure that has all of the things that an old vine has. It's brittle, it's deeply rooted, you know, all those things. But it can be, there is a need for forward thinking, entrepreneurial kind of

I don't know, just kind of an innovative approach to what could be. And I do think, like I've appreciated along the way that one of the things about you as a leader is certainly you can preach the word of God and I think you can lead the people. But you also have this business background, kind of an entrepreneurial spirit about you that I really have always appreciated. And I see it infused in the way that you're leading a cascade.

Kevin Murriel (31:33.449)
Thank you.

Chris McAlilly (31:33.711)
And I just wonder if you could maybe reflect on that dimension because I think that would need to be a part of the conversation as well. So how do you, you know, maybe talk a little bit about your background. I know you're a business undergrad, but kind of where you kind of captured the spirit of kind of an entrepreneurial mindset and the way in which that impacts and informs how you think about your work at Cascade.

Kevin Murriel (31:40.144)
absolutely.

Kevin Murriel (31:57.45)
Sure, sure. Definitely for my dad. So my dad has been an entrepreneur CEO for 33 years. So all of my life, you know, and 35 years. so growing up, you know, with a business owner, small business owner, I've always worked for him, you know, from delivery driver to, you know, 13, 14, being in boardrooms with him, learning his business and being able to meet clients. And so

I have only known that side of life in terms of business. And my dad, know, businessman, coach, you know, Sunday school teacher. I mean, he was always present with us, mom too. But yeah, that's where I got it from. And so now, and so when I went to business school, you know, just kind of got the tools, but always had that.

that drive to start something, like start things. I mean, that's always been, and when I feel a way, man, when I'm not doing something, I almost feel kind of weird. you know, when I'm in a season and I haven't started something new or started something different. And so that for me was important because, you you can have all the great ministry ideas in the world. If you can't fund them, what is that gonna do? Or,

if people can't trust you with their money or if they can't trust you to manage, you know, what is given. And it's a stewardship issue, you know, for me. When I look at the life of Jesus, he had one of the best business models of leadership and discipleship that you could really study. And I think somebody really needs to study it and people have. But look at the people that he had on his team. I mean, he went to get a tax collector, right? You know, went to get Matthew.

He wants to reach other tax collectors, but he has to have somebody who knows money, who knows commerce, who knows economy. He has a CFO, Judas is the keeper of the money bag. So, you you've got to have, and then he's got entrepreneurs, you know, all the fishermen who were, you know, was Peter and, you know, Andrew and all the others who were fishermen, who had fishing businesses. And so he was able to move kind of throughout, not just the, you know, the Greco-Roman world healing and.

Kevin Murriel (34:24.989)
working miracles and all the things and that was important. But it was also important for him to be able to talk about money over and over again. And to do it in a way, think, wherein he was informed, I wonder what those conversations with Matthew were like, around the fire, somewhere on the mountain, just hanging out when we don't read about these moments in the gospels. I wonder was he asking Matthew about,

being a tax collector, what does that mean? Or Judas who obviously had a financial background because he wouldn't have been able to the money back. I mean, business is so important in the life of the church. And now kind of serving where I'm serving, and you see it all the time when you deal with staff. I mean, it's all kinds of, mean, the bigger staff you have, the larger number of staff persons you have, I mean, you have all the issues that come with it, and good and bad, right?

And so I love the fact that preachers know how to preach, but do you know HR? And can you hire people who know that? Can you galvanize a team around you so that you can be aligned to vision and to grow, but also understand what's going on within the bounds of the church? Yeah, yeah. mean, people have to trust you with their resources.

And I always say this, Chris, nobody wants to put their money, their hard earned money in lazy hands. They just don't. And I tell my team that all the time that these folk trust us with millions of dollars every year that they freely give. And it's a stewardship issue for us. And so I can love you and I'm going to love you. But if you aren't stewarding this the right way, you know, you're not going to able to serve here, but I will still love you.

I mean, I serve on our team that is be hired. And that's been a joy. It's been a joy. It's been a burden at times. But it has also helped me understand that knowing theory and theology and being able to preach is not enough to be an effective pastor today.

Chris McAlilly (36:45.243)
What do you, I appreciate you sharing that and I agree and I certainly have learned a ton from various folks who lead both in the church at significant scale and who have learned some of the wisdom that comes from leadership and education or healthcare, you know, politics or entrepreneurship.

All those things are super helpful. But I do think they're essential at this particular stage of the church's life. I guess one of the things that I'm... We have a lot of resources and assets, physical assets, monetary assets that are just kind of in various places. And it does seem like a moment where we need some fresh thinking about...

Kevin Murriel (37:34.013)
Yeah.

Kevin Murriel (37:44.275)
Mm-hmm.

Chris McAlilly (37:44.636)
you know, how to manage those resources in a way that might be collaborative. But I think the work that you're talking about would be priority setting, it seems to me, that has to coincide with creating, you know, some strategies for this old vine.

to graft in some maybe some new branches so that we could produce some new fruit, man. Like, you know, I think that there's, there's, and I just, the thing that I appreciate about you is that you're actively engaged. And I see it, I see it in your, you know, your Bible studies that you do online, or I see it in some of your sermons that, that I find my way to on the internet, you know, through social media. I see it in the way in which you're posturing your own leadership and your team.

Kevin Murriel (38:14.941)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Chris McAlilly (38:41.339)
to kind of help us imagine what it would look like to engage not just Southwest Atlanta, but Midtown Atlanta and the Greater Atlanta metro area, I assume, will be part of kind of the future for you. I just, you know, I guess the thing that comes to mind to me to say is just like, you know, take care of yourself because as I see where you're headed and what you're doing and I just want to

Kevin Murriel (39:05.803)
yeah.

Chris McAlilly (39:10.949)
figure out ways to pour fire on it. But I also want to make sure, know, how do you, as you're engaging and kind of posturing yourself for growth, I do think it's important to think about like, how do you sustain that through time? Especially as a father of young children, as a husband, kind of how are you thinking about managing growth, the team, all the responsibilities that you have, but also, you know, kind of making sure that you're sustaining this thing over the long term.

Kevin Murriel (39:24.198)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kevin Murriel (39:40.848)
Yeah, man, know, 40 is on the horizon. You know, I don't know when this podcast is going to air, know, I've.

Chris McAlilly (39:46.307)
yeah, it'll be by the time I'll be more gray and more bald by the time it is. I've already passed the threshold, man.

Kevin Murriel (39:49.618)
hahahaha

Man, I tell you, so, you know, I turned 40 in three weeks. And so I am, you know, I'm in a different season now, man. I'm just pacing different. you know, Dr. Luther Smith, I'll use him as an example, who was also my professor at Candler. I tell the story that he gave me one of my papers back and it looked like he just bled all over my paper, man. It was just, it was brutal.

It was absolutely brutal. was like, man, I thought Dr. Smith, I'm your favorite student. You know, I thought I wrote a great paper. So he called me to his office. said, Kevin, I want to talk to you about this. And so went to his office and he sat me down and he said, Kevin, this was a great paper, but it was the wrong one for this assignment. And in other words, I didn't read the instructions and I just kind of missed and I because I was busy. I was doing ministry. I was working at these churches and doing all this stuff.

And he sat me down and he said, there's no doubt you were born to do ministry. There's no doubt that, you you're going to excel in whatever you do in ministry, but you have to learn early that ministry is a long distance marathon. It's not a sprint. I, and so he said to me, you have to change your pace. And he told me that as a first year seminarian, and I have always kept that, with me, just that sage wisdom.

Chris McAlilly (41:18.203)
That's a bummer.

Kevin Murriel (41:18.248)
And so I think I've sustained because I know, I think now I know when to change pace. And that's kind of where I am, man. I am, I'm looking at a different pace, hiring more high functioning people and staff to be able to sustain that and to do it at a high level. And then, you know, I'm not trying to do everything. We've got an amazing team. And so,

Chris McAlilly (41:22.851)
instead of trying to reconnect.

Chris McAlilly (41:47.387)
Don't you think?

Kevin Murriel (41:47.516)
And then, know, my kids keep me grounded and my wife. And so it's really a joy. So yeah, man, just trying to change pace.

Chris McAlilly (47:38.743)
Should I tell them we're back?

Chris McAlilly (48:11.648)
I don't know what to ask.

Chris McAlilly (48:17.431)
Do you have the capacity to cut it?

Chris McAlilly (48:24.447)
He said, kick me out.

Chris McAlilly (49:27.138)
I guess for the moment, I could just say, we've had this great conversation with Kevin Muriel. We had a technical issue. I could do something like that if you wanted to have something.

Chris McAlilly (49:44.789)
He said, kick me out. And then I said, are you able to jump back in with same link? We could quickly wrap and end.

Chris McAlilly (51:28.545)
think he's gonna depart. You want me to just wrap? Yeah, so I could give you some language.

Chris McAlilly (51:42.474)
Mm-hmm.

Chris McAlilly (52:01.888)
Was that, it looked like something was happening.

Chris McAlilly (52:24.084)
Okay, you tell me.

Chris McAlilly (52:41.622)
straight in we've experienced some technical difficulties and we're unable to get Kevin back on but it's been a great conversation we'll wrap it up here thanks to Kevin for taking time to talk with us today join us or stay tuned for our next episode

Chris McAlilly (53:11.05)
Hey, y'all. Thanks for being with us today on The Wait podcast. We've had a great conversation with Reverend Dr. Kevin Muriel. We experienced some technical difficulty at the end of the conversation, but it was an awesome experience talking with Kevin. We've known one another for a long time and I really appreciate him taking the time to be with us. If you love the episode, I would encourage you to share it with a friend, somebody else that may be thinking about the future of the church.

like and subscribe to WAIT Podcast wherever it is that you listen and we'll be back next week with another episode.